Online Petition about a MLB Logo
Guest Post By Cleveland Frowns
We are trying to generate some momentum for a petition to help us Clevelanders and others come to terms with a Major League Baseball logo/symbol that's causing a significant amount of aggravation and embarrassment with no end in sight. We would very much appreciate your help here.
If you think that the world might be a better place either without a potentially demeaning caricature of a Native American as a symbol of a major professional sport team, or if we could better understand why such a caricature might be OK then please have a look at this essay on the Cleveland Indians' Chief Wahoo and/or please sign the online petition that's linked at the end of the essay. However you feel about caricatures of Native Americans as symbols of sports teams or online petitions you might find the story contained within the essay to be an interesting bit of history.
Again, would very much appreciate any of your attention here and wouldn't ask for it if we did not think that this issue was important, were not optimistic about this approach to framing and resolving it, and did not think that the essay was a decent read. Hits/comments on the web page and signatures on the petition will help to get the word out; i.e., it's easier to pass this thing on when it bears more hits/comments/signatures so if you would pass it on to anyone who might be interested that would be a huge help.
By Kyle - 6/24/2008
40 Comments:
no
A curse? No. However, I do believe it is time to retire Chief Wahoo. Plus, the caps they wear now that does have the mini chief wahoo on them look horrible. The Script I caps are much better looking.
let me ask this. if they had won the world series, would you have posted the article and petitition to dump the image and name of the club?
you posted a very interesting article with a history of both and concerns of the offensive nature. then you end it by talking about a curse on the club and the world series drought.
so what's your point? that the name and the image are offensive and demeaning to a people and a culture, or that the name and image have brought a curse on the team that keeps them from winning the world series.
words escape me right now.
Ada -- To respond to your questions, your second question first:
Q -- "so what's your point? that the name and the image are offensive and demeaning to a people and a culture, or that the name and image have brought a curse on the team that keeps them from winning the world series."
A -- Both. These points aren't mutually exclusive. That we've held on to such a demeaning image for so long and have had such painful results from our ballteams gives us an excellent reason to believe in a curse. Certainly a better reason than the Cubs and Red Sox have/had for believing in their respective widely publicized and discussed curses.
Q -- "if they had won the world series, would you have posted the article and petitition to dump the image and name of the club?"
A -- Maybe. But but the article and petition would be much less persuasive.
Thanks for reading. Happy to answer any other questions about this.
Kyle-
No Shot!!! Chief Wahoo is part of Cleveland. The script I looks stupid.
Jared
Gibby
Jacobs Field has all but eliminated Chief Wahoo from public view. That's not going to change so we may as well adapt.
I don't care for the Chief Wahoo logo, so I bought a script "I" hat when those came out. I've since replaced that with a block "C" hat (which look so classy).
Cleveland Spiders or Cleveland Argyle Sox.
-DHM
I'm amazed at the amount of resistance met by Cleveland Frowns' article. I really thought it brought some issues to light. As the article points out, if a Jewish logo were sported by a German team, it would be considered an outrage. What's the difference here? The only difference I can see is centuries instead of decades between now and the genocide that occurred. Have we forgotten so quickly about the plight of Native Americans? Or is it simply not as important as a game?
The Wahoo logo is almost entirely veiled by the image of baseball, and all the glory of Indians players throughout the history of the team. But if you separate the logo from the good memories we've projected onto it, then all we have left is an offensive caricature. It's a shame to me that Native Americans' views/opinions are still to this day pushed to the backburner because people are more concerned with good memories, or how good the logo looks on a t-shirt. Esp. when Native Americans themselves have pointed it out as offensive.
Cleveland, very interesting article, but I would have preferred that your argument were framed by something more realistic and well, serious than a curse. Using a curse as persuasian for change is almost desperate and definitely ineffective. I would hope the motivation for change was more than just superstition. That's what I gleaned from your response to Ada, at least...
Ada, by the way, the article states: We need not abandon the name “Indians,” ...We could call him, simply, “The Chief.” Sounds to me that they only want to change the image, not the name.
Didn't we kill all those reds so we could do what we want with this land?
Let them drink their fire-water!
If they had won the Indian Wars they would be depicting us however they wanted...
God Bless America!
I found a a few sweet arrow heads today on the farm...
DHM: Agreed re: the block C. Though as Sance points out, we're all for keeping the name "Indians." Northeast Ohio has a rich Native history that should be honored. The last link in the Frowns piece touches on this.
Jared: Wahoo will always be a part of Cleveland, and nobody will take away your T-Shirts, hats, or the old Wahoo sign that used to be on top of the stadium that's now at the Cleveland Historical Society.
Sance: You're right. The resistance is strong. Agree with all the points you make in your first two paragraphs.
As for the third, would say that the argument was framed in something realistic, to the extent that it was framed by explaining the real strong positive feelings that Wahoo engenders, and the real strong negative feelings that many have about being made to feel bad about our attachment to Wahoo. The same old "realistic" or reason-based arguments against Wahoo have been made over and over again for years. You explained some of them yourself in your first two paragraphs. Obviously these arguments haven't worked.
As for the Curse: the motivation for change is more than superstitious. Thought the response to Ada re: "both" explained that. In addition to adding a metaphysical element to the discussion that's consistent with some widely-held moral precepts (i.e., do unto others), bringing the prospect of a Curse into the discussion allows us to draw an interesting parallel to the Curse of the Bambino and the Curse of the Billy Goat, and is also a way to address unreasonable (or more emotion-based) arguments for keeping Wahoo with what some might call an unreasonable (but possibly powerful, especially if our teams continue to suffer so many painful losses) argument for getting rid of him. Reason or "reality" does have its limits...somewhere. Unless someone can tell us why we're here.
Thanks again for the comments.
There's no curse, and if there WAS a curse, it has nothing to do with the Indians name and logo since we've had this name and a version of the logo since 1916 and have since won two world series (1920 and 1948).
Some believe the curse comes from trading Rocky Colavito.
And some people, like me, don't believe in curses.
First of all, who says Chief Wahoo is demeaning. I remember that this issue was dealt with...result was that members of the Penobscot Tribe, which Louis Sockalexis belonged approved of the Chief caricature of their ancestor. The Chief actually looks liek a caricature of Sockalexis. Of course, many protesting would not be aware of the fact surrounding Chief Wahoo's creation.
I hope the hell that this latest anti Chief movement is NOT just a bunch of white persons supposedly speaking for Native Americans.
I am native on both my mother and father's sides albeit very very blended in...and this is in NO WAY offensive to me.
There is an Intertribal Powwow at Lake Village , Andover, July 19 and 20th and I ask anyone to join me there - we will be wearing Chief tee shirts and caps.
http://www.geocities.com/dikanogi/Ohio.html
It just seems to me that, unless a major outpouring of Native American persons is heard over the Chief, most of those who protest are misrepresenting others.
Kind of like - The Irish & the Notre Damne "Fighting Irishman"
The Irish could not give a rats ass about that...If Carlin were still alive he would say so.
I do not have bigotted bone in my body.......
I read the essay - its a crock
Spell out exactly what you believe Chief Wahoo is doing that affects any group?
Show me the damage
The Curse of Rocky Calivito. Read Terry Pluto's book. I agree with Russ.
Peter -
You know damn well where I want that Chief Wahoo....on top of Jacob's Field. Yes, Jacob's Field.
Speaking of Jacob's Field....tearing up for me this Thursday night to welcome Omar back in person....100.
Jared
I am Native American and it doesn't bother me.
of course there will be those who are offended and not offended, both native and non-native.
i am not saying absolutley 100% that chief wahoo is offensive, nor the team name.
but...i look at the image and think of the associated team name and i completely understand how someone *could* be offended.
the picture in the post of the various different takes, with different ethnicities sums it up perfectly, i think.
if the cleveland team was named the cleveland blacks and had that charicature does anyone believe that ppl wouldn't be offended? would it matter if the image and team name was penned in the early 1900's?
seriously, what is the difference? and what would your reaction be to those that did find it offensive?
as for not being of an ethnicity and therefore somehow not being allowed to be offended at slanders/slights against that ethnicity - i am a caucasion and take GREAT offense at the use of the n-word.
and lastly, speaking for myself, i am not saying that those who support the continued use of chief wahoo or the indians name are bigoted. not at all.
again, i am only saying that it is completely understandable to me that someone *might* take offense.
should the indians dump the image and name? i don't know. there is the fighting irish leprechaun that doesn't seem to cause much of a stir or offend.
maybe it comes down to how much offense is taken. there's also the historical fact that the native population was decimated and then shoved onto reservations situation sometimes in less favorable locales or completely away from their lands. maybe the shitty way they were treated raises the sensitivity to being charicatured.
again, i don't know.
whats the n word?
I think something that is overlooked and totally occulted by this anti-movement is the pleasure that Chief Wahoo and the whole "Tribe" scene has provided for many , many persons.
The "Tribe" meaning the team and all the fans, sportswriters, commentators, beer vendors, ushers, John Adams , innocent children, mean old bastards like Petey, Nuns, ALL nationalities, creeds including Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Pentecostals and Catholics,,, stadium policemen and anyone who cares to share in this uplifting pastime.
For these persons- notions of arbitrarily executing Chief Wahoo - THEIR Chief,who makes heap BIG Medicine!
Hail Chief- Peacemaker - Bringing together MORE diverse groups in peace and happiness than the POPE!
I think even T-Dawg is in the "Tribe"
BTW: the "word verification " is often very difficult for me to read
Wow, really? This just seems weird to me to argue about. It's not gonna change. If it does, then it it will just cause the same little petition thing in reverse. So what does it matter. It's not like they have an indian with a knife through it's heart....
Anyhow, can't we argue over something a little more important? For example, should Britney get the kids back? Did Angelina have her babies? Did McCain really say he was gonna veto beer?
Well, here are my answers.
Yes, Britney should get her kids back, then after she gets caught driving with them on her lap, she should immediately and publicly endorse McCain.
Angelina and Brad need to auction off their baby pics to People for around $17.4 million and then donate the funds to Obama's campaign.
And John McCain should never touch my beer, misspeaking or not.
Cleveland frowns...you are a fucking idiot. Thank you.
and Kyle, you should be ashamed of yourself to let something this crazy appear on your blog. I'm liberal, but this is WAY overboard. I was going to ask you to be my VP, but not NOW!
XOXO..Obama
P.S. Let's fuck some whores!
Ya, it seems asinine to budget any energy to this issue when about 200,000 casulties have been sustained in Iraq, and our wealth is bleeding away to foreign leech/states. ---Our system is eating its young as they endenture themselves to decades of student loans and expensive credit and our old prepare to lose all as health painfully and most surely slips away.
Freedom- just another word for nothing left to lose
and NO - A Free Market will NOT save us
and yet, you completely refuse to answer my question.
if, in 1916, the team took on the name of the cleveland blacks and had a caricature to go along with it, and the fans, the sportscasters, the players, the city, and the region had lots of fond memories and fun over the decades...
if after almost 100 years objections were raised about the image and the team name, would you blow it off as frivolous?
why is that so hard to understand that some ppl might take offense to it, and that that offense might be understandable?
so just answer it. cleveland blacks. black caricature. long history. lots of fun.
you'd blow anyone off who objected and maybe even said things would change?
or tell me how a team called the cleveland blacks is analogically different than a team called the cleveland indians.
as far as debating important things on this blog. sure. but we do seem to enjoy kevin's top five songs lists. oh wait, those are more fun pointless things. we can't talk about ethnic sensitivity because the local sports team has a tradition?
ok.
what's funny is that i really don't get too worked up over this, other than understanding why ppl might take offense to it.
what gets me on this is the complete lack (other than a few other comments) to even acknowledge this, and i don't get it.
talk about pointless...it's a SPORTS MASCOT (of sorts) that you are arguing is "sacred".
i'm done. i should have let myself get sucked into this.
ok, i understnd better, now.
i was just watching the da vinci code and was thinking aobut how the catholic church objected to the movie and how i just shrugged it off at the time as "get over it" "don't watch it, then" etc.
and how i have blown off how the church bans books and movies over the years.
and so on.
it was very easy for me to do and i gave little credence to their concerns.
i've even got called on the carpet a couple times (at least) on this blog about blowing off religion.
so while i still see how ppl could be offended by chief wahoo, i no longer am puzzled as to why no one even acknowledges it and i withdrawl my verbose comments in those regards.
funny how things work, isn't it?
and i feel better now, too. i think i will have a glass of wine or a beer and watch more of the movie.
in all seriousness, i hope eveyone has a good night.
:)
Nobody protests the Wichitaw Whiteys mascot...
(Darwal please tell me you remember that.)
Out of curiosity, what's Cleveland Frowns' stance on the older Indians logo? Would a more realistic picture of a Native American be more acceptable?
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Indians have a "Chief Wac-a-Homa" in the 80's? Or was that the Braves?
The above was a -DHM rap.
Petey - The whole Sockalexis thing is really an urban legend. The media was asked to come up with a new name, and they chose the Indians. Many believe it was a play/variation of the Boston Braves, who where on everyones' minds when they came from last place to win the World Series in 1914. Although...when Sockalexis played for the Cleveland Spiders, some fans referred to them as the Indians.
Personally, I hope the name and the logo never change. I grew up with this team and all the heartaches. I'm old enough to be able to say I saw Gaylord Perry pitch and Frank Robinson manage the team and smack one out over the centerfield fence. I saw Dennis Eckersley and Buddy Bell play. And I was around for the World Series' in the '90's...which is when the protestors started showing up at games.
So when are the Irish going to get up in arms because of Notre Dame's "Fighting Irish" mascot? Drunk and always looking for a fight...that's not offensive, eh? Doesn't seem to bug the Irish folk, though.
From Wikipedia: According to polling results published in Sports Illustrated in February 2002, "Although most Native American activists and tribal leaders consider Indian team names and mascots offensive, neither Native Americans in general nor a cross section of U.S. sports fans agree." According to the article, "There is a near total disconnect between Indian activists and the Native American population on this issue." Add Ward Churchill to that list that gets offended...the psycho liberal who claimed to be Native American until the tribe he claimed he belonged to said, "He ain't ours."
Now; Lets talk Washington "REDSKINS"
How do Swedes & Scandinavians feel about the Minnesota Vikings logo - a barbarian with horns on his helmet?
How does Jesus feel about all the "Devil" mascots - Blue Devils, Red Devils, Demons etc
Russ - WE are the Tribe, Man!
All Cleveland sports should be cancelled! Every team has been a compleat flop over the years(I need no examples and ALL moaning will fall on deaf ears). I think it would cheer everybody on the North Shore up if that energy was focused elsewhere. PLEASE TRADE ME!!!!!!!!!
Z - Please learn how to dribble.
So I live in MD, and I have to say... I saw a guy with an Indians/Chief wahoo hat in Ben and Jerry's today and, where out here Indians fans come more scarcely than in OH, I had to exclaim to him 'ooh, an indians fan!' And he said, "oh, I'm not really, I just liked the hat." In light of this whole discussion, the irony was too much to not pass this on.
By the way, I'm not a huge fan of the whole Fighting Irish analogy... I'm half-irish, my dad is full irish, and of course neither of us are offended by the Notre Dame mascot. But that's because we (like many irish-americans) really have no ties to Ireland. I've never even been there. And I'm living comfortably, I feel absolutely no effects from any persecution done to Irish-americans mere decades ago. But Native Americans still feel the effects today (those that live on reservations, esp), and this is their native land.
Jared, have fun tonight watching the LAST PLACE AL CENTRAL CLEVELAND INDIANS. It was nice for them to allow Barry Zito to get his THIRD win of the year and look like Cy Young in doing so. Please, don't blame injuries because those players injured were playing like shit before they went on the DL. I'm as a big a fan as anyone, but I just refuse to pay money to watch bad baseball. It's time to trade CC find a doctor who can stick Hafner and have him still pass the drug test, along with Victor. INDIANS ARE HORRIBLE
Its demeaning.
Its a caricature of a people.
Most of all of your over-intellectualized arguments are dumb.
Anyone with any sense knows its demeaning.
For many people its become and icon for Cleveland that is hard to let go of.
But just because some Indians don't find it offensive makes it no less so.
I know some black people who are never offended by the n-word. Its still a demeaning offensive word.
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